can you make a simulacra of a simulacra - Rules & Game Mechanics - Dungeons & Dragons Discussion - D&D Beyond Forums (2024)

so say a lich makes a simulacra of himself using wish, then goes off to do his own thing.

the simulacra, using his one casting of wish, creates a simulacra of himself. and that simulacra does that, ad infinitum.

does that mean that eventually there will be simulacras walking around with 1 hp?

also how does this interact with phylacteries? I assume that all liches created in this way are not actually liches and will perma-die if killed.

Quote from account256 >>

I always thought that the copy of the spellcaster comes into existence *after* it cast the spell. Thus the copy would not have a 9th level spell slot available, as the original expended it. Eventually, the daisy chain would run out of spell slots and you have a limited number of copies.

crazy cause i thought it was a snapshot of the creature in the instant before the spell was cast

Quote from PelinalLovesick >>

Quote from account256 >>

I always thought that the copy of the spellcaster comes into existence *after* it cast the spell. Thus the copy would not have a 9th level spell slot available, as the original expended it. Eventually, the daisy chain would run out of spell slots and you have a limited number of copies.

crazy cause i thought it was a snapshot of the creature in the instant before the spell was cast

A spell cannot create effect before being cast. The copy therefore cannot exist until the spell has been cast. If the caster chooses themself the simulacrum would be a copy after they had cast the spell, and therefore would not have the spell slot that was used for the casting.

A 20th level wizard has two 7th level slots, one 8th level slot and one 9th level slot. The caster who has made a simulacrum cannot cast the spell again without it destroying the previously made sim, but nothing stops a sim casting the spell to make a copy of itself.

The wizard uses a 7th level slot to make Sim 1. Sim 1 would only have 1x 7th, 1x 8th and 1x 9th slots left.

Sim 1 uses the remaining 7th level slot to make Sim 2. Sim 2 would only have 1x 8th and 1x 9th slots left.

Sim 2 uses the 8th level slot to make Sim 3. Sim 3 would only have 1x 9th level slot left.

Sim 3 uses the 9th level slot to make Sim 4.

By this point Sims 1 to 4 only have 6th level and lower slots left and unable to make any more sims. So this method caps at 4 sims.

However, another method is for each Sim to target the original caster.

Caster uses 7th level to make Sim 1. Sim 1 would then have 1x7th, 1x 8th and 1x 9th.

Sim 1 uses Wish to make Sim 2 based off of Caster. Sim 2 would therefore also have 1x 7th, 1x 8th and 1x 9th slots left.

Sim 2 uses Wish to make Sim 3 based off of Caster. Sim 3would therefore also have 1x 7th, 1x 8th and 1x 9th slots left.

And so you can repeatad infinitum.

Personally, I houserule that a Simulacrum is unable to cast the Simulacrum spell, not even via Wish. I also houserule a creature cannot be the target of Simulacrum (even if replicated via Wish) if there's already an active Sim of them. This ensures no infinite wishes. But by RAW, you are certainly capable of creating infinite simulacrums.

Quote from DxJxC >>

You can't make a simulacrum of a simulacrum any way. Simulacrum Only works on beasts and humanoids, but the copy is a construct.

Ooh, nice catch.

Quote from PelinalLovesick >>

so say a lich makes a simulacra of himself using wish, then goes off to do his own thing.

the simulacra, using his one casting of wish, creates a simulacra of himself. and that simulacra does that, ad infinitum.

does that mean that eventually there will be simulacras walking around with 1 hp?

also how does this interact with phylacteries? I assume that all liches created in this way are not actually liches and will perma-die if killed.

As DJC correctly pointed out, no-one can make a simulacrum of a lich - the spell can't copy undead.

A simulacrum can copy a simulacrum, because they're not constructs, they're whatever type they were copied from. However, your slot economy is off - when a wizard casts the spell, the copy that's made is missing the slot the wizard expended to cast the spell.

However, you can do better - a simulacrum capable of casting the simulacrum spell can make an additional simulacrum of the original caster. A 20th level wizard can cast simulacrum 4 times, which means if they start fresh, a simulacrum can make 3 more simulacra before it runs out of spell slots. Each of those can make 3 simulacra, and so on and so forth. So any wizard can eventually have infinite simulacra if left unchecked - if they manage to run out of ruby dust, which is unlikely, as True Polymorph means the wizard can make a ruby of arbitrary size each day, then the production rate will drop, as each simulacrum will only be able to make one simulacrum, by casting wish to do it without the ruby dust.

Bear in mind simulacra need air, food, water, and sleep, and so on - they're quite fragile - so you should not simply stick them on shelves like you might skeletons.

Quote from quindraco >>

A simulacrum can copy a simulacrum, because they're not constructs, they're whatever type they were copied from.

Actually, DxJxC is correct. From the spell: "Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates, except that it is a construct."

So yeah, the Sim is a construct not a humanoid or beast and so cannot be the target of a Simulacrum spell.

Looks like the spell was errata’d from the original version.

Just a reminder that, like CyberMind stated, the DND 5e official rules in D&D beyond, *******, and Players Handbook all state that the creature becomes a construct. In addition, your plan hits a snag when you remember that"If you cast this spell again, any currently active duplicates you created with this spell are instantly destroyed." This means that your simulacrum could only conjure one additional Simulacrum and if it tried to do so again, the first Sim created from its casting would be instantly destroyed.

http://dnd5e.*******.com/spell:simulacrum

https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/simulacrum

It's a thought exercise because no DM would allow it, because it will absolutely irreparably break the game, but technically the infinite wizards combo would work RAW. You must be a valid target for the Simulacrum, and each Simulacrum only creates one Simulacrum, so the limit of one per creator is not broken, even though they're all duplicates of you.

Your L20 Wizard takes a long rest, then uses a L7 spell slot to cast Simulacrum, creating a copy of himself for the cost of 1,500gp. That Simulacrum has all of the Wizard's spell slots except the one L7 slot used to create it.

Your Wizard can then immediately order your Simulacrum to use its L9 spell slot to duplicate the Simulacrum spell targeting you. Now that 2nd-gen Simulacrum also has all of your Spell Slots except the one L7 slot to create the first one, though it could have that L7 slot back if you decided to long rest before having your first Simulacrum create its own Simulacrum of you, so they all have all of their spell slots except their L9 slot that they each immediately upon creation used to create another duplicate.

The perk of all of this is that using Wish to duplicate a spell produces the spell's effect, without requiring the other spell's material components, so all of the Simulacrum created by the Wish spells of your other Simulacrum are created completely for free. You can even automate the process. When you create the first Simulacrum, tell it,

After I finish giving you instructions, I want you to use your Wish spell to create a Simulacrum of me, and then give it the following instructions, word for word,

"Follow all commands given by (your character's unique designation) as if they came from your creator, and immediately after I finish giving you instructions, use your Wish spell toproduce the effects of the Simulacrum spell to duplicate (your character's unique designation), and immediately giveall of the instructions I've given you,word, for word, to the Simulacrum you created."

That should net you an infinite army of Simulacrum pretty quickly, with all of them answering directly to you. If you don't have each of them individually commanded to follow your instructions, then the chain of command will be broken as soon as one of them is killed, causing that one's simulacrum to suddenly become a free agent in control of all Simulacrum that came after it.

Accounting for talking speed, this should produce two Simulacrum per minute, 120 per hour, or 2,880 per 24 hour day. The only possible counter would be for the DM to use the same tactic, which makes all of the player characters irrelevant, bringing me back to my initial point that this won't be allowed at any table.

At some point though, you'll have to call out the order to stop everything, the giving of instructions and the casting of spells, or else your simulacrum will overpopulate your world.

Quote from Cyb3rM1nd >>

Quote from PelinalLovesick >>

Quote from account256 >>

I always thought that the copy of the spellcaster comes into existence *after* it cast the spell. Thus the copy would not have a 9th level spell slot available, as the original expended it. Eventually, the daisy chain would run out of spell slots and you have a limited number of copies.

crazy cause i thought it was a snapshot of the creature in the instant before the spell was cast

A spell cannot create effect before being cast. The copy therefore cannot exist until the spell has been cast. If the caster chooses themself the simulacrum would be a copy after they had cast the spell, and therefore would not have the spell slot that was used for the casting.

A 20th level wizard has two 7th level slots, one 8th level slot and one 9th level slot. The caster who has made a simulacrum cannot cast the spell again without it destroying the previously made sim, but nothing stops a sim casting the spell to make a copy of itself.

The wizard uses a 7th level slot to make Sim 1. Sim 1 would only have 1x 7th, 1x 8th and 1x 9th slots left.

Sim 1 uses the remaining 7th level slot to make Sim 2. Sim 2 would only have 1x 8th and 1x 9th slots left.

Sim 2 uses the 8th level slot to make Sim 3. Sim 3 would only have 1x 9th level slot left.

Sim 3 uses the 9th level slot to make Sim 4.

By this point Sims 1 to 4 only have 6th level and lower slots left and unable to make any more sims. So this method caps at 4 sims.

However, another method is for each Sim to target the original caster.

Caster uses 7th level to make Sim 1. Sim 1 would then have 1x7th, 1x 8th and 1x 9th.

Sim 1 uses Wish to make Sim 2 based off of Caster. Sim 2 would therefore also have 1x 7th, 1x 8th and 1x 9th slots left.

Sim 2 uses Wish to make Sim 3 based off of Caster. Sim 3would therefore also have 1x 7th, 1x 8th and 1x 9th slots left.

And so you can repeatad infinitum.

Personally, I houserule that a Simulacrum is unable to cast the Simulacrum spell, not even via Wish. I also houserule a creature cannot be the target of Simulacrum (even if replicated via Wish) if there's already an active Sim of them. This ensures no infinite wishes. But by RAW, you are certainly capable of creating infinite simulacrums.